TenagaSurya

SunElec.com : Solar World and the so called CASM goes on the attack against us?

TenagaSurya — Wed, 01 Feb 2012 06:07:51 +0000

asSalaamu’alaykum.

Solar World and the so called CASM goes on the attack against us?

Posted on January 30, 2012 by John Kimball

The latest article in the CASM (Chicken American Solar Manufacturers) website and published in over 10 other news sites including Sun and Wind all over the world, it specifically calls out Sun Electronics, as the perfect example of a huge stockpiler / importer of Chinese modules who is rushing, sneaking and stockpiling Chinese solar modules in anticipation of a huge pending decision for importing them. They say its quite clear and obvious because of the auction we won from an American Solar Company, Evergreen Solar, awarded to us by the Federal Bankruptcy Court when they were auctioned off. The money went to the creditors, nearly all Americans, of the failed company.

Not only is this a bold face lie but we paid much more than anyone else offered those creditors for those 7 MW’s of modules, substantially much more. Evergreen could not have done better by Sun Electronics or anyone else. We did them a huge favor. We were also one of Evergreen’s largest distributors for many years. All of this is with an American Company, not a Chinese one

Regarding the article from the CASM (Coalition for American Solar Manufacturing) led by Solar World.

“Solar World / CASM research found numerous examples of companies stockpiling dumped and illegally subsidized Chinese imports.

Sun Electronics, a Miami importer and wholesaler, brought in 31,000 Chinese solar laminates on a single day: Dec. 21, 2011.

Sun Electronics noted in an advertisement that it has recently obtained an entire second storage warehouse, likely demonstrating its intent to receive other large shipments of Chinese solar products.”

We would like to clarify a few things..

CASM said we brought in 31,000 laminates. This is a false statement because they were not laminates, they were in fact solar panels.

They presumed that since we recently got more warehouse space, we must be “planning on accepting much more on illegally subsidized product”. Another false statement.

They also mentioned that Sun Electronics bought them from an illegally subsidized companies by the Chinese? Sun Electronics bought the panels from Evergreen Solar USA, a U.S. company that went into bankruptcy, as part of the U.S. bankruptcy court settlement. Sun Electronics was one of their biggest distributors for USA and the Caribbean. These panels were never illegally subsidized.

CONCLUSION: When the one major manufacturer in the U.S. of crystalline modules, Solar World and CASM, have to resort to using a small mom and pop company with 25 employees and a half dozen interns, like us, as their example of why they should take solar pricing back 10 years so they can survive, it’s really weak. And when then have to lie and make up lost job statistics, its a scam on the American people.

If I may be allowed to say, I and Sun Electronics have had an exemplary reputation for over 38 years of service to solar home owners and the wholesale renewable energy market as well as the back-up power market for power blackouts (Haiti has power for about 3 hours a day for 8 M people, and so many other countries who have horrible power conditions). CASM’s efforts goes against everything I can think of relating to renewable energy and helping people. I have worked non stop, diligently and passionately been promoting and developing affordable renewable energy, back-up power and energy conservation since 1973, 38 years, my entire working life since I was, 23. To internationally attack myself and Sun Electronics to do it, clearly showers tons of doubt on their statistics of jobs they say will be lost.

The question of how many jobs are being lost because of China’s PV manufacturer’s subsidized industry is moot when you consider that no manufacturer with exception of First Solar’s hype, even with all the U.S. Governments, local and utility subsidization, very similar to China’s efforts, makes any money. That goes for the rest of the world as well. Solar manufacturing is a losing proposition as the technology stands now and always has been. I have been strictly in the PV business for over 25 years (Photowatt in the 80’s and Kyocera in the 90’s). I have also worked for Congressman George E. Brown Jr. (Chairman of the House Science and Technology Committee) and Arizona Governor Bruce Babbitt’s Arizona Solar Energy Commission in the 70’s.

What is going on is a misrepresentation to the public of the impact of inexpensive solar power from China or anywhere else for that matter. If other countries have cheaper labor deal with it but not by looking the gift horse in the mouth, take advantage of it. Let them lose the money. Solar Energy should be exempt from such selfish and smelly self-serving tactics by companies who seem to want to be among the losers in the PV manufacturing business. The maintainable and profitable jobs are in the service jobs that come from lowering the cost of solar no matter what countries they are coming from. Right now solar panels cost less than they ever have not because of China but because of all the inventory that was built by the world’s factories and the reduction of incentives in places like Germany and Spain where all the worlds factories feasted, including the Chinese, German, Spanish, Japanese, Indian, Italian, American, English, Swedish, Portuguese, etc., etc..

By far the large number of jobs aren’t even in the factories, the factories are all automated except for the low paying unskilled jobs like those of applying plastic and aluminum frames. 60% of the cost of a solar panel is in the silicon cell processing and that is 100% done by robotics and assembly lines.

The jobs are in the servicing sector like distribution, dealers ( Sun Electronics Int., Inc. and many others, thousands of small business composed of dealers, designers, engineers, installers, storage, warehouse workers, trucking, receptionists, fork lift drivers, packers, pickers, order clerks, inventory controllers, bookkeepers, customer service, technical support and salespeople.

The most ugly proof of what is happening is the grandfathering the proposed import duties (I’ve heard as much as 65%) on Chinese panels to last October 2011. How unfair can it be for those companies who unknowingly 9imported Chinese modules.

Just a few years ago it was common for everyone except the Chinese to trash Chinese modules as garbage. What joke they were to do that, Chinese modules have always been as good as anyone else’s. People we are talking about glass, aluminum and rock. After all these years I still tell everyone they are like sliding glass doors, unless you live on the moon, a sailboat, an RV or in the space station the efficiency rarely makes a difference besides for just a difference in 5% more efficiency you will pay 20% more for the panels per watt.

All I ever wanted to do was to make renewable energy and especially solar because its limitless cost effective for everyone. I can site numerous boring details how hard we have tried to do this. I have always invested every dime I made in this business right back into it. Its always been peddle to the metal because frankly I don’t think we have any time to waste.

I’m into solar and renewable because they are good for our kids, my kids and yours. Look at what is happening to our Earth, look how fantastic a place it is and how precious life is. I have to wonder if Solar World cares about life or just money. They couldn’t make it so they are going to the Bureaucracy to help them raise everyone’s price for solar and I mean raise it significantly. If this happens the cost effectiveness of solar will be null and void. The price will skyrocket and what good will that do? More money losing factories for the U.S. with no real jobs to speak of in its place. Renewable Energy and The Earth’s protection for the future should be totally exempt from all this crap.

Yeah I’m mad, I’m tired of liars and liars who get supported by governments to make money and pay lobbyists to perpetuate it. Great Job Solar World for leading the charge. Drop that American Flag you are desecrating as you fight not for freedom, not in God we trust but for nothing more than yourselves so you can keep on wasting money. For god’s sake let the Chinese do it if they want to it will save every factory supported by other peoples money (the taxpayers) from going down the tubes.

Bend with the wind American’s be smart use them for everything their worth and win the jobs were they really count and develop the infrastructure, the educated solar homeowners and the largest number of possible installations because nothing sells solar better than real people standing in front of their independent solar home, satisfied, after having spent their hard earned money on a solar system that they love.

I feel sorry for anyone who messes with Sun Electronics, people have done it before and those people have paid dearly and we have always managed to stay alive. I’ll buy any panel from whoever I want to as long as it helps lower the cost of solar, helps to save the last of 31,000 endangered species, helps to provide clean water and food.

I’m mad as hell,. What goes around comes around. I bet if they, Solar World doesn’t get their big sister, the bureaucrats, to protect them they will go out of business immediately. If they do we will have to pay for their everything, like a spoiled ungrateful teenager.

In my opinion CASM numbers are so limited they aren’t worth listing. Who are they including, I will find out and report back in my next blog. My guess is anyone who makes a wire, a bolt, a mounting rack, a charge controller, a battery, the guys who wash their cars and manicure their lawns.They are losers, defects, who couldn’t make it in the real world, like most of the people in Washington and the government. I’m not saying everyone just most of them. I worked in Washington D.C. for a long time and thats what I came to know. Look at politics if you don’t beieve me. They could’nt make it on their own, the American way, so they went to Washington for the benefits, to write nonsensical rules and regulations. They went to Washington for power, influence, cash under the table and to feed out of the pork barrell.

Solar WOrld and their friends at the mysterious hundreds of thousands at CASM want to take the solar ball away from us and run away and leave the rest of us with no way to play the game, and a very important game it is. It could be an integral part, the very last chance we have to save the earth from ever being able to truly jump to renewable energy while we still have the ability. The way things are going it , the economy, could get worse not better. You can be sure there will be more catastrophes, like hurricanes, tsunami’s, earthquakes, floods, solar flares, terrorism, blockades, etc. that will affect energy supplies and prices. But as of right now, you can afford to go solar more than ever before, because prices have finally gotten down to where we can actually make a go of it, because they are cost cost effective against utility power, but, not if these losers get their way with all these blown up statistics and lies they are presenting to Congress and the people of America. We’’ll all be screwed except Solar World’s handful of employs that work at their money losing factory. Make it profitable by raising your prices and the congress is buying it and the bureaucrats are buying it because its politically popular to bash the Chinese. Unfortunately its all going to hurt the real world of solar electric development. All for one and none for the all.

Don’t get robbed stand and fight, WRITE!

https://writerep.house.gov/writerep/welcome.shtml Write your Representative

http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm Write your Senator

Thank you.

Sorry for the typos but my 6 year old son got all stars on his school work and he wants that toy from Target, got to go. Pay your kids for grades, it works!

John Kimball

Owner

SOURCE: SunElec.com Blog

Filed under: Solar Panel Tagged: $1/watt, electric, solar cell, Solar Panel

YouTube.com : Cruise ship aground: More aerial views of Costa Concordia

TenagaSurya — Thu, 26 Jan 2012 06:11:06 +0000

asSalaamu’alaykum.

YouTube.com : Cruise ship aground: More aerial views of Costa Concordia

Diunggah oleh RussiaToday pada 14 Jan 2012
At least three people have been confirmed dead as a cruise ship carrying over 4-thousand passengers ran aground off Italy’s north-west coast. 69 people are still unaccounted for. Most of those on board the Costa Concordia were evacuated on lifeboats or swam ashore. The vessel hit a sandbar near the island of Giglio late on Friday.
RT on Twitter http://twitter.com/RT_com
RT on Facebook http://www.facebook.com/RTnews
Kategori: Berita & Politik
Tag:
RT video footage aerial helicopter raw video Italy ship ground Costa Concordia cruise ship Italy

ship crash evacuation ship hits reef Giglio island italy Italy coast ship ship accident italy passenger evacuation

Lisensi:
Lisensi YouTube Standar

Filed under: General, Solar Panel Tagged: electric, solar cell, Solar Panel

SolarPanelTalk.com: Restrictions by Electirc Companies for BYO Panels

TenagaSurya — Fri, 22 Jul 2011 12:31:43 +0000

Restrictions by Electirc Companies for BYO Panels

Printable View

07-22-2011, 10:13 AM
traderneal
Restrictions by Electirc Companies for BYO Panels

What are the restrictions to using your own byo solar panels if you want to hook them up in an on-grid system and can we sell the excess electric back that is not used?

07-22-2011, 10:22 AM
Sunking

Real simple, you cannot use them is the only restriction.

07-22-2011, 12:36 PM
traderneal

Well I will be using them with or without their permission. It is my house. They are not the authority of what I can do to my house. There are a ton of people that do use them this way ie to supplement their electric. Are you sure you understood my question?

07-22-2011, 01:18 PM
russ

Your question is well understood. Your house or not, the electric grid isn’t yours – you are connecting into the property of others. Go totally off grid if you wish to do as you please – still an insurance problem though and in many places there are building code restrictions.

Unless an item is UL approved (or by an equivalent group) it is not legal to plug in to the grid.

Doing so makes it entirely possible for you to be disconnected from the grid as a penalty and in the event of a firs your homeowners insurance is most likely void.

This is to protect people from DIY items and shoddy items than are often totally unsafe.

If people are dumping power back into the grid and a lineman is shocked when thinking the system is dead he ain’t gonna be happy.

07-22-2011, 01:32 PM
traderneal

Quote:
Originally Posted by russ
Your question is well understood. Your house or not, the electric grid isn’t yours – you are connecting into the property of others. Go totally off grid if you wish to do as you please – still an insurance problem though and in many places there are building code restrictions.

Unless an item is UL approved (or by an equivalent group) it is not legal to plug in to the grid.

Doing so makes it entirely possible for you to be disconnected from the grid as a penalty and in the event of a firs your homeowners insurance is most likely void.

This is to protect people from DIY items and shoddy items than are often totally unsafe.

If people are dumping power back into the grid and a lineman is shocked when thinking the system is dead he ain’t gonna be happy.

I’m not stupid that’s why I’m asking so I can do it properly. I feel the answer was very poorly addressed and I will go to another forum as this one seems too commercial. It’s obvious that there is a safe way to do this without having to pay a high cost for a commercial system. If this was a true diy self forum there would be support to diy. Anyway good job promoting “safe” commercial electricity for your contractors union. If the meter doesn’t turn backwards it shouldn’t go back to the grid. I’m sure there is a way around this. Anyway thanks for the “conversation” or should I say talking down to. /no longer a member of this group!

07-22-2011, 02:12 PM
russ

Quote:
Originally Posted by traderneal
I’m not stupid that’s why I’m asking so I can do it properly. I feel the answer was very poorly addressed and I will go to another forum as this one seems too commercial. It’s obvious that there is a safe way to do this without having to pay a high cost for a commercial system. If this was a true diy self forum there would be support to diy. Anyway good job promoting “safe” commercial electricity for your contractors union. If the meter doesn’t turn backwards it shouldn’t go back to the grid. I’m sure there is a way around this. Anyway thanks for the “conversation” or should I say talking down to. /no longer a member of this group!

Please go – no problem. No one here is going to recommend taking illegal actions.

Quote, ‘If the meter doesn’t turn backwards it shouldn’t go back to the grid’ That makes no sense whatsoever.

I would recommend some green/survivalist site where loony is the norm and safety, building codes etc are of no interest.

Everyone is a part of society whether they or society likes it or not. Rules, codes etc are there for a reason and not to be picked and chosen at one’s convenience when one does not even understand them.

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Filed under: Solar Panel

SolarPanelTalk.com: Feedback for Solar Panel Talk

TenagaSurya — Sun, 03 Jul 2011 04:07:27 +0000

….. or crawl back to where you belong.

Feedback for Solar Panel Talk

Printable View
10-26-2010 02:11 PM - Jason
Feedback for Solar Panel Talk
I want to know your thoughts about Solar Panel Talk, whether it be negative or positive.

Please send an email to feedback [at] solarpaneltalk.com or click on the “contact” link right under the solarpaneltalk logo.

This feedback is crucial for building the best possible Solar Energy community.

Your feedback is greatly appreciated.

**Please DO NOT email with solar questions. They will go unanswered. All solar questions must be posted on the forum for everyone’s benefit. Thank you.

10-26-2010 06:14 PM - MarineLiner
To me, “very” positive.

Still like more the green color.
Email will be sent with more feedback.

10-27-2010 07:33 AM - Jason
Thanks Marineliner, however, the green would be a dramatic change, and people were saying it was too bright on their screens and annoying to look at. The current colors are easy on the eyes, which is important because people are on here for long periods of time.

03-09-2011 07:29 PM - MarineLiner
Updates on the latest solar energy news
We need updates on the latest solar energy news.
But, unfortunately, someone make used by advertising their facebook account.
A very smart action had taken by Mike.

It is:

04-07-2011 08:13 PM - Swampwood
I get the lots of neg attitude, afraid to ask questions feeling here.

04-07-2011 08:34 PM - russ
Hi Swampwood – The guy is throwing a tantrum as he thinks he should dictate what is going on.

He has been warned for the last time.

Ask your questions – no problem.

Russ

05-17-2011 03:54 AM - dvhenry
I see the mods here must be kept busy just deleting spam, I just noticed the latest one, with 10 in 5 minutes!

Are you guys running a spam posting contest you have not told us about?

05-17-2011 03:59 AM - russ
Today there have been several that were absolute spammers – China based for the most part.

Also a few links were removed.

Just for the record – members that contribute may be allowed to post links – many in the industry have excellent and in depth knowledge that is very helpful to others.

A one line or short paragraph that says little doe not qualify.

Russ

05-17-2011 04:26 AM - dvhenry
You’re doing a good job, if they were allowed to post spam unchecked these forums would soon become frustrating to visit.

06-25-2011 09:55 PM - healthawareness
negative effects of solar energy – on home
I have been doing some research on solar power and the potential health risks associated with placing solar panels on your home – many have concerns. Aside from all the dangerous chemicals and materials that go in to the manufacturing of the solar panels, silicon hydrocholoride is one that produces silicon dust – which is extremely dangerous to the respiratory system. Obviously, there are also background levels of radiation, and negative e. vibration from these panels which also pose health risks. We all want to contribute to energy efficiency and save money on energy costs, but we all need to be aware of health concerns. I suggest that anyone considering solar panels on their home should reasearch the following:
1) What chemicals are used in the manufacturing of solar panels
2) How long do the panels last, and what methods of disposal are used after the lifetime of the panels? They are a serious toxic waste after use. Look at Japan.
3) What levels of radiation and negative energy are being emitted from panels, exp.
4) Dangers – surges etc.,

google – health risks of installing solar panels on home
- solar panels and dangers to health
- manufacturing and disposal of solar panels
Although there are serious health risks in considering these, they are not discussed when promoting energy savings. Be pro-active – dig deeper for the right information and protect your health and the environment.

06-25-2011 10:04 PM - russ
Healthawareness – This is the typical green BS & blather that comes about when people parrot what they are told rather than think.

If you are so concerned I suggest you just hide under a rock and don’t eat or drink anything – the problem will be resolved shortly.

You can search anything and come up with horror stories – posted by people like you and your little friends. Often they are posted by a concerned scientist or environmentalist – both terms are meaningless without an individuals name attached.

Russ

06-26-2011 05:24 AM - Sunking

Originally Posted by healthawareness
Be pro-active – dig deeper for the right information and protect your health and the environment.

You gotta die from something.

06-27-2011 08:49 PM - healthawareness
solar panel discussions
This reply is for Russ!

All education and knowledge comes from what people read, are taught, and their learning experiences, not “What they Think” as you put it.

The information I wanted to share came from FACT. It is not what I came up with. Many people were concerned about whether or not there were any side effects for using solar panels. I certainly am far from hiding under a rock. I am well educated, with two university degrees, two years of college, five years education in Alternative Medicine, was a Social Worker for 25 years, qualified as a personal trainer, fitness instructor and Nutritionist, and feel justified in stating that any information that I have given is accurate. I am far from naive. Where do you get off making any reference to “my little friends” etc.?

You must be some crazy, uneducated person who is in the business of selling solar panels, or perhaps have some vested interest, like working for one of the energy companies that is pushing them.

Why don’t you offer some helpful, knowledgeable information to this panel if you have any rather than offensive criticism? Either that, or crawl back to where you belong.

06-27-2011 08:58 PM - russ

Originally Posted by healthawareness
This reply is for Russ!

All education and knowledge comes from what people read, are taught, and their learning experiences, not “What they Think” as you put it.

Moderator note – Never have sold any solar equipment whatsoever. Alternative medicine? Social worker? You are gone –

Russ

Filed under: Battery, Charger, Inverter, Solar Panel, Solar Thermal

SolarPanelTalk.com: NABCEP Russ

TenagaSurya — Sun, 26 Jun 2011 04:31:44 +0000

http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showthread.php?3289-Hello

fantastic moderator, and it won’t take long to see why

Hello

#1 02-03-2011 09:18 PM NABCEP Russ
Hello
Hi, I’m a solar engineer in PA. I own my own integration company. I am well versed in primarily grid tied installations and am happy to give advice and help with any questions people may have.

#2 02-04-2011 03:15 AM russ
Hi Russ, A couple of questions if you would –

The NABCEP part – is that sales certification? Installer certification?

The solar engineer part – what discipline is that a branch of? Electrical or electronics engineer specializing in solar possibly?

What does the NABCEP certification specifically qualify you to do?

Solar Integrator? Does that mean middle man? Or is some beneficial service provided?

Russ

#3 02-04-2011 04:04 AM NABCEP Russ

Originally Posted by russ
Hi Russ, A couple of questions if you would –

The NABCEP part – is that sales certification? Installer certification?

The solar engineer part – what discipline is that a branch of? Electrical or electronics engineer specializing in solar possibly?

What does the NABCEP certification specifically qualify you to do?

Solar Integrator? Does that mean middle man? Or is some beneficial service provided?

Russ

I hold NABCEP PV installer certification.

When I said solar engineer I was referring to the electrical engineering of turnkey solar systems. I design systems not components.

NABCEP doesn’t give any specific qualifications. It’s the most widely recognized solar certification in the US and is used by many state incentive programs to qualify installers. In order to get the certification you have to prove a certain level of experience in the field as well as pass a rigorous exam covering design, installation, and safety procedures.

I guess they don’t use the term in Turkey, but in the US, the term integrator is thrown around similarly to installer. It essentially differentiates you from a company that just installs solar. We provide turnkey services including design, rebate assistance, maintenance, monitoring, consulting, etc. There are companies that do only installation that are often hired as subcontractors by a company like us. We however for the most part do our own in house installations.

Thank you for the warm welcome to the site. I have been oh so encouraged to contribute to your site.

#4 02-04-2011 04:14 AM russ
Again, I was born in the US and lived there many years before finally retiring in Turkey.

So you are an electrical engineer?

Flashing a designator like NABCEP in front of your name is a turn off to me. It is a certificate that has nothing to do with anything – other than that you have taken time to pass an exam – Many have the certification and you never hear of it.

Most people have very little idea about the solar field and do not know what the various certifications and ‘green’ courses now being offered really stand for. They are easily led down various paths out of ignorance – unfortunately.

Russ

#5 02-04-2011 04:25 AM NABCEP Russ

Originally Posted by russ
Again, I was born in the US and lived there many years before finally retiring in Turkey.

So you are an electrical engineer?

Flashing a designator like NABCEP in front of your name is a turn off to me. It is a certificate that has nothing to do with anything – other than that you have taken time to pass an exam – Many have the certification and you never hear of it.

Most people have very little idea about the solar field and do not know what the various certifications and ‘green’ courses now being offered really stand for. They are easily led down various paths out of ignorance – unfortunately.

Russ

Unfortunately in this field, there is no universal certification that shows you know anything about the field. Anyone can get a “solar certification” at a local community college in a day. Nabcep is trying to fill that void by offering a certification process that confirms experience in the field and is relatively difficult to attain. It is becoming more widely known and accepted in the US.

You are correct that people can be easily led down a path of ignorance with random “certifications”. That is what nabcep is trying to eliminate by being difficult to obtain. The more widely accepted the better.

Ive only flashed it in front of my name because you took my first choice and it was the first thing solar related I thought of.

#6 02-04-2011 10:19 AM Jason
Welcome to SPT Russ!

Glad you found us and decided to sign up to contribute. It’s greatly appreciated!

I look forward to reading your posts! :julie:

*also please keep in mind there are some occasional folk that join, talk up their “experience”, and have an alternative motive. this is a hyped up market, so seeing fakes is a common occurrence. thats what keeps this board full of high quality content. Our Russ is a fantastic moderator, and it won’t take long to see why thanks again.

#7 02-05-2011 06:30 AM jimmychacha
Also from PA
Hi Russ, I am also from Pa, (mount carmel), and I also hold the NABCEP certification (entry level). I would like to start my own business installing, but I need to get this info mastered first. I appreciate the opportunity to share knowledge with you and everyone else on this site. Hopefully I can contribute once in a while as well!
Jim

#8 02-05-2011 07:12 AM NABCEP Russ

Originally Posted by jimmychacha
Hi Russ, I am also from Pa, (mount carmel), and I also hold the NABCEP certification (entry level). I would like to start my own business installing, but I need to get this info mastered first. I appreciate the opportunity to share knowledge with you and everyone else on this site. Hopefully I can contribute once in a while as well!
Jim

Good luck! I was in your position before. It’s a tough road ahead. If you have questions or need advice feel free to PM me.

#9 02-05-2011 07:16 AM Sunking

Originally Posted by NABCEP Russ
Unfortunately in this field, there is no universal certification that shows you know anything about the field.

Oh I don’t know about that. Licensed PE or electrician carries a lot of weight and I would take a licensed Master Electrician over a NABCEP certification any day of the week. With a Master Electrician I know that person has at least 2 years formal education, 8 years continual education and at least 10 years experience. With NABCEP I can get some kid that dropped out of high school or a roofer who does not speak English :p.

#10 02-05-2011 07:43 AM NABCEP Russ

Originally Posted by Sunking
Oh I don’t know about that. Licensed PE or electrician carries a lot of weight and I would take a licensed Master Electrician over a NABCEP certification any day of the week. With a Master Electrician I know that person has at least 2 years formal education, 8 years continual education and at least 10 years experience. With NABCEP I can get some kid that dropped out of high school or a roofer who does not speak English :p.

Sure but 95% of master electricians and licensed PEs know nothing about solar. There’s more to it than just electrical work. An electrician could be clueless when it comes to the structural end of things. An ideal combination for certification would be a PE or master electrician with NABCEP in addition.

And I wouldn’t be so quick to discount NABCEP. It has education and industry experience qualifications as well as continuing education requirements. The exam itself is also very in depth covering all aspects of solar, not only electrical, but structural design, safety, and best practices. I’d also think you’d be hard pressed to find a dropout or some dumb roofer who can pass the exam.

#11 02-05-2011 10:17 AM Sunking
NABCEP is tailored for sales persons, liscensed electricians and electrical contractors. I know the man personally who wrote the curriculum and NEC Article 690 (John Wiley). I sat on some of the same code making panels he serves on. With a electrical contractor license you can can pull the permits, with a electrical liscense you can do the work for hire no NABCEP certification required in any state.

With a NABCEP certification you cannot do the work or pull the permits without a licensed electrical contractor pulling the permits or do the work unless supervised directly by a licensed electrician. Effectively meaning you are an apprentice working to earn your license some day In other words it is not recognized by any authority having jurisdiction. A PE, Master, or Residential Electrician already has all the skills, education, license, and experience to do solar work. It takes about a day to learn from reading a book written by John and it is free. As for the structural, that takes a PE to sign off for, not a NABCEP certification.

#12 02-05-2011 10:43 AM NABCEP Russ

Originally Posted by Sunking
NABCEP is tailored for sales persons, liscensed electricians and electrical contractors. I know the man personally who wrote the curriculum and NEC Article 690 (John Wiley). I sat on some of the same code making panels he serves on. With a electrical contractor license you can can pull the permits, with a electrical liscense you can do the work for hire no NABCEP certification required in any state.

With a NABCEP certification you cannot do the work or pull the permits without a licensed electrical contractor pulling the permits or do the work unless supervised directly by a licensed electrician. Effectively meaning you are an apprentice working to earn your license some day In other words it is not recognized by any authority having jurisdiction. A PE, Master, or Residential Electrician already has all the skills, education, license, and experience to do solar work. It takes about a day to learn from reading a book written by John and it is free. As for the structural, that takes a PE to sign off for, not a NABCEP certification.

I agree with you 100%. NABCEP on it’s own is pretty meaningless. It doesn’t give you any authority on it’s own. It’s clearly suited as a supplement to electrician or engineer. It is a worthy certification though because it confirms experience in solar. Like I said before you can have a PE or Electricians license and have no experience or knowledge in solar.

They do have a certification geared towered sales, but that’s not what I hold.

Also, NABCEP is recognized by certain state rebate programs and is a fast way to be approved to work with them.

P.S. I assume you meant John Wiles. I think everyone knows who he is. Nice name drop though.

#13 02-05-2011 11:59 AM Sunking

Originally Posted by NABCEP Russ
P.S. I assume you meant John Wiles. I think everyone knows who he is. Nice name drop though.

Yep a typo.

Where I see the benfit of NABCEP is a residential or commercial electrician as it adds a nice entry to the Resume that might be useful to some electrical contracting company to hire him that does solar as part of their business model, or to a salesman who works for an electrical or roofing contractor to go out to the customers home, pitch the product, and gather the required information to give to the designer or engineer.

I do mostly commercial solar for telephone and oil companies, no residential to speak of because there is no real money in it for my architectural design/build firm. Most of the work is off-grid battery for telemetry and cellular radio in remote areas. Have done some large scale grid tied for large business with Walmart 500 Kw being the largest single project. 90% of all the contractors i hire are commercial electrical contracting. When a roof is involved they sub contract out to a roofing contractor. A small percentage of solar contractors I have dealt with are roofing companies who sub contract the electrical out.

Then the small stuff we do with solar is retainer contracts with roofing and electrical contractors who do cookie cutter installs where we pre-design all their systems, and when they make a sale gives us the details and modify for the project and Stamp It for permits and construction.

But all in all solar only makes up about 5 to 10 % of all our business. If it were only green energy, I would have no business or employing people. The real money is in utility power generation, transmission, and industrial electrical. If the government would get out of the way I could employ a hundred or more people instead of just 9 or 10 which I might have to start laying them off.

#14 02-05-2011 03:03 PM jimmychacha

Originally Posted by Sunking
Oh I don’t know about that. Licensed PE or electrician carries a lot of weight and I would take a licensed Master Electrician over a NABCEP certification any day of the week. With a Master Electrician I know that person has at least 2 years formal education, 8 years continual education and at least 10 years experience. With NABCEP I can get some kid that dropped out of high school or a roofer who does not speak English :p.

Or, you might get a well-versed English speaking former Steelworker and CNC machinist, who lost his job after 15 years of service, then when back to school and earned an AAS in Electronics Engineering, a Certificate of Specialization in Sustainable Energy, the LEED Green Associate accredidation, as well as the NABCEP certification.

No disrespect to journeymen or master electricians who put in their time, but there are those eager to learn the right way to do things. In addition, PA residents are only eligible for solar rebates if they use a contractor on a certain list managed by DEP. NABCEP certification is one path to get oneself on that list.

#15 02-05-2011 03:20 PM Sunking
Jimmy without the electrical or electrical contracting license you cannot do the work for hire. No authority having jurisdiction will allow it. The key is the license, not the certification. The AEES degree is the first step to get the electrical license, then the required 2 to 5 years of documented apprenticeship (2000 hours of pay check stubs), then take the license written test. Any electrician can spend a couple of days reading the NABCEP material and pass the test as they already know most of all the principles and math involved.

I am not trying to discourage anyone from obtaining the certification, especially electrical contractors, but receiving the certification does not permit you to do any installation work. You would have to hire an electrical contractor to do it. Any electrical contractor needing a NABCEP certified member to qualify for state incentives is easy; Either send one of your electricians to take the test, or hire an electrician with the certification.

#16 02-05-2011 09:12 PM russ
P.S. I assume you meant John Wiles. I think everyone knows who he is. Nice name drop though.

Cute NABCEP Russ. Not much class and wrong but cute.

Russ

#17 02-06-2011 03:27 PM NABCEP Russ

Originally Posted by russ
P.S. I assume you meant John Wiles. I think everyone knows who he is. Nice name drop though.

Cute NABCEP Russ. Not much class and wrong but cute.

Russ

Sorry just put off by all of the high and mighty know it all talk down to you attitudes from the people here. Don’t think I’m going to be wasting much more time on here… Too many solar panels to install.

And btw, we’re not an electrical contractor and we pull our permits no problem. I do have an electrician do the required work but not the whole thing. Electricians aren’t necessarily qualified to mount the panels nor have the skills necessary to align the panels and make them look good.

#18 02-06-2011 03:30 PM NABCEP Russ

Originally Posted by jimmychacha
Or, you might get a well-versed English speaking former Steelworker and CNC machinist, who lost his job after 15 years of service, then when back to school and earned an AAS in Electronics Engineering, a Certificate of Specialization in Sustainable Energy, the LEED Green Associate accredidation, as well as the NABCEP certification.

No disrespect to journeymen or master electricians who put in their time, but there are those eager to learn the right way to do things. In addition, PA residents are only eligible for solar rebates if they use a contractor on a certain list managed by DEP. NABCEP certification is one path to get oneself on that list.

Jimmy dont worry I’m with ya. I’m in the same boat. No aspiration to become an electrician or electrical contractor. You’ll have no problem doing jobs in PA. All you have to do is sub out the necessary electrical work.

#19 02-06-2011 05:47 PM jimmychacha
I’m getting the same impression about this “forum”.

#20 02-06-2011 06:39 PM Sunking

Originally Posted by NABCEP Russ
And btw, we’re not an electrical contractor and we pull our permits no problem.

OK then if not an electrical contractor, then what trade? Roofing, home improvement, mechanical, HVAC?

In PA contractor license are issued on the county or city level, and all contractors are to be registered with the state to comply with Home Improvement Consumer Protection Act (PA HICPA), Act 132 (Senate Bill 100 of 2007) for any contract work over $500.

All states require contractors for hire to have license. This is to protect both the contractor and more importantly the consumer. One of the requirements for any contractor liscense is to be bonded and insured to protect the homeowner or business.

That is not picking on anyone, that is just a fact of doing contract work

#21 02-06-2011 06:55 PM NABCEP Russ

Originally Posted by Sunking
OK then if not an electrical contractor, then what trade? Roofing, home improvement, mechanical, HVAC?

In PA contractor license are issued on the county or city level, and all contractors are to be registered with the state to comply with Home Improvement Consumer Protection Act (PA HICPA), Act 132 (Senate Bill 100 of 2007) for any contract work over $500.

All states require contractors for hire to have license. This is to protect both the contractor and more importantly the consumer. One of the requirements for any contractor liscense is to be bonded and insured to protect the homeowner or business.

That is not picking on anyone, that is just a fact of doing contract work

Were a home improvement contractor. We’re registered with the state. Fortunately since the state licensing program came into effect, we don’t have to get licenses in each city or county. The state license is pretty much accepted in lieu of local licenses.

#22 02-06-2011 07:04 PM Sunking

Originally Posted by NABCEP Russ
Were a home improvement contractor.

That is my point, you have to be a licensed contractor of some kind to pull a permit. Then by your own admission you have to sub contract an electrical contractor to do the work. That is not picking on you.

#23 02-06-2011 07:29 PM NABCEP Russ

Originally Posted by Sunking
That is my point, you have to be a licensed contractor of some kind to pull a permit. Then by your own admission you have to sub contract an electrical contractor to do the work. That is not picking on you.

Yeah i was just making the point that you don’t have to be particularly an electrical contractor. And also, I was never meaning to say you in particular were picking on me. You’ve been the most reasonable really.

#24 02-07-2011 09:42 AM TNeron-Bancel
Good afternoon everyone,
As an employee and regular representative of NABCEP at conferences, I would like to clarify something that has popped up across this thread.

There seems to be a confusion between the NABCEP Entry Level Exam and the NABCEP PV Installer Certification. The Entry Level Exam is not a certification. It is an exam administered by a network of registered providers that can offer it to students who complete their entry level solar PV course. Achieving this exam shows a basic understanding of the design and installation of solar PV systems and does not qualify anyone to install. In the past, this exam was called the Certificate of Knowledge which is why some people think that it is a certification. As you can see from my this thread, we’re still trying to make this distinction clear.

The PV Installer certification is NABCEP’s flagship program and in order to sit for this exam, an applicant needs to show of combination of experience as the lead installer along with training or education. All NABCEP Certified Installers can be found listed on our website on our Installer Locator.

I’d like to end with saying that we haven’t positioned our PV Installer certification to be a substitute for any electrical or solar installation license. Ultimately, it is up to the states to establish that.

In regards to the usefulness or value of the NABCEP PV Installer certification, I’ll leave that up to your discussion but if you have any questions about our programs which include the new PV Techincal Sales certification, please feel free to contact us at (800) 654-0021 or info@nabcep.org.

#25 02-07-2011 09:54 AM russ
Hi TNeron-Bancel – Welcome to Solar Panel Talk!

Thanks for your post and the clarifications. We appreciate you taking time to make the post.

Russ

http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/printthread.php?t=3289&pp=40

05-14-2011 01:35 PM #130
mikegoldnj
Junior Member
Join Date
May 2011
Location
New Jersey
Posts
7

Originally Posted by russ
Buy a green tee shirt or lease a solar PV system – it is the same thing. You are simply allowing someone else to make the investment – therefor they can claim any ‘green’ credits.

The leasing company is working on any carbon footprint – you are an innocent bystander.

Russ

How did you get to be a moderator here? You must really enjoy hearing yourself talk because, clearly, you have no capacity for hearing anyone else’s facts or opinions.

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