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07-22-2011, 10:13 AM
traderneal
Restrictions by Electirc Companies for BYO Panels

What are the restrictions to using your own byo solar panels if you want to hook them up in an on-grid system and can we sell the excess electric back that is not used?

Unless an item is UL approved (or by an equivalent group) it is not legal to plug in to the grid.

Doing so makes it entirely possible for you to be disconnected from the grid as a penalty and in the event of a firs your homeowners insurance is most likely void.

This is to protect people from DIY items and shoddy items than are often totally unsafe.

If people are dumping power back into the grid and a lineman is shocked when thinking the system is dead he ain’t gonna be happy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by russ
Your question is well understood. Your house or not, the electric grid isn’t yours – you are connecting into the property of others. Go totally off grid if you wish to do as you please – still an insurance problem though and in many places there are building code restrictions.

Unless an item is UL approved (or by an equivalent group) it is not legal to plug in to the grid.

Doing so makes it entirely possible for you to be disconnected from the grid as a penalty and in the event of a firs your homeowners insurance is most likely void.

This is to protect people from DIY items and shoddy items than are often totally unsafe.

If people are dumping power back into the grid and a lineman is shocked when thinking the system is dead he ain’t gonna be happy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by traderneal
I’m not stupid that’s why I’m asking so I can do it properly. I feel the answer was very poorly addressed and I will go to another forum as this one seems too commercial. It’s obvious that there is a safe way to do this without having to pay a high cost for a commercial system. If this was a true diy self forum there would be support to diy. Anyway good job promoting “safe” commercial electricity for your contractors union. If the meter doesn’t turn backwards it shouldn’t go back to the grid. I’m sure there is a way around this. Anyway thanks for the “conversation” or should I say talking down to. /no longer a member of this group!

Quote, ‘If the meter doesn’t turn backwards it shouldn’t go back to the grid’ That makes no sense whatsoever.

I would recommend some green/survivalist site where loony is the norm and safety, building codes etc are of no interest.

Everyone is a part of society whether they or society likes it or not. Rules, codes etc are there for a reason and not to be picked and chosen at one’s convenience when one does not even understand them.

….. or crawl back to where you belong.

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10-26-2010 02:11 PM - Jason
Feedback for Solar Panel Talk
I want to know your thoughts about Solar Panel Talk, whether it be negative or positive.

Please send an email to feedback [at] solarpaneltalk.com or click on the “contact” link right under the solarpaneltalk logo.

This feedback is crucial for building the best possible Solar Energy community.

Your feedback is greatly appreciated.

**Please DO NOT email with solar questions. They will go unanswered. All solar questions must be posted on the forum for everyone’s benefit. Thank you.

Still like more the green color.
Email will be sent with more feedback.

It is:

He has been warned for the last time.

Ask your questions – no problem.

Russ

Are you guys running a spam posting contest you have not told us about?

Also a few links were removed.

Just for the record – members that contribute may be allowed to post links – many in the industry have excellent and in depth knowledge that is very helpful to others.

A one line or short paragraph that says little doe not qualify.

Russ

google – health risks of installing solar panels on home
- solar panels and dangers to health
- manufacturing and disposal of solar panels
Although there are serious health risks in considering these, they are not discussed when promoting energy savings. Be pro-active – dig deeper for the right information and protect your health and the environment.

If you are so concerned I suggest you just hide under a rock and don’t eat or drink anything – the problem will be resolved shortly.

You can search anything and come up with horror stories – posted by people like you and your little friends. Often they are posted by a concerned scientist or environmentalist – both terms are meaningless without an individuals name attached.

Russ

Originally Posted by healthawareness
Be pro-active – dig deeper for the right information and protect your health and the environment.

You gotta die from something.

All education and knowledge comes from what people read, are taught, and their learning experiences, not “What they Think” as you put it.

The information I wanted to share came from FACT. It is not what I came up with. Many people were concerned about whether or not there were any side effects for using solar panels. I certainly am far from hiding under a rock. I am well educated, with two university degrees, two years of college, five years education in Alternative Medicine, was a Social Worker for 25 years, qualified as a personal trainer, fitness instructor and Nutritionist, and feel justified in stating that any information that I have given is accurate. I am far from naive. Where do you get off making any reference to “my little friends” etc.?

You must be some crazy, uneducated person who is in the business of selling solar panels, or perhaps have some vested interest, like working for one of the energy companies that is pushing them.

Why don’t you offer some helpful, knowledgeable information to this panel if you have any rather than offensive criticism? Either that, or crawl back to where you belong.

Originally Posted by healthawareness
This reply is for Russ!

All education and knowledge comes from what people read, are taught, and their learning experiences, not “What they Think” as you put it.

Russ

Hello

#1 02-03-2011 09:18 PM NABCEP Russ
Hello
Hi, I’m a solar engineer in PA. I own my own integration company. I am well versed in primarily grid tied installations and am happy to give advice and help with any questions people may have.

The NABCEP part – is that sales certification? Installer certification?

The solar engineer part – what discipline is that a branch of? Electrical or electronics engineer specializing in solar possibly?

What does the NABCEP certification specifically qualify you to do?

Solar Integrator? Does that mean middle man? Or is some beneficial service provided?

Russ

Originally Posted by russ
Hi Russ, A couple of questions if you would –

The NABCEP part – is that sales certification? Installer certification?

The solar engineer part – what discipline is that a branch of? Electrical or electronics engineer specializing in solar possibly?

What does the NABCEP certification specifically qualify you to do?

Solar Integrator? Does that mean middle man? Or is some beneficial service provided?

Russ

When I said solar engineer I was referring to the electrical engineering of turnkey solar systems. I design systems not components.

NABCEP doesn’t give any specific qualifications. It’s the most widely recognized solar certification in the US and is used by many state incentive programs to qualify installers. In order to get the certification you have to prove a certain level of experience in the field as well as pass a rigorous exam covering design, installation, and safety procedures.

I guess they don’t use the term in Turkey, but in the US, the term integrator is thrown around similarly to installer. It essentially differentiates you from a company that just installs solar. We provide turnkey services including design, rebate assistance, maintenance, monitoring, consulting, etc. There are companies that do only installation that are often hired as subcontractors by a company like us. We however for the most part do our own in house installations.

Thank you for the warm welcome to the site. I have been oh so encouraged to contribute to your site.

So you are an electrical engineer?

Flashing a designator like NABCEP in front of your name is a turn off to me. It is a certificate that has nothing to do with anything – other than that you have taken time to pass an exam – Many have the certification and you never hear of it.

Most people have very little idea about the solar field and do not know what the various certifications and ‘green’ courses now being offered really stand for. They are easily led down various paths out of ignorance – unfortunately.

Russ

Originally Posted by russ
Again, I was born in the US and lived there many years before finally retiring in Turkey.

So you are an electrical engineer?

Flashing a designator like NABCEP in front of your name is a turn off to me. It is a certificate that has nothing to do with anything – other than that you have taken time to pass an exam – Many have the certification and you never hear of it.

Most people have very little idea about the solar field and do not know what the various certifications and ‘green’ courses now being offered really stand for. They are easily led down various paths out of ignorance – unfortunately.

Russ

You are correct that people can be easily led down a path of ignorance with random “certifications”. That is what nabcep is trying to eliminate by being difficult to obtain. The more widely accepted the better.

Ive only flashed it in front of my name because you took my first choice and it was the first thing solar related I thought of.

Glad you found us and decided to sign up to contribute. It’s greatly appreciated!

I look forward to reading your posts! :julie:

*also please keep in mind there are some occasional folk that join, talk up their “experience”, and have an alternative motive. this is a hyped up market, so seeing fakes is a common occurrence. thats what keeps this board full of high quality content. Our Russ is a fantastic moderator, and it won’t take long to see why thanks again.

Originally Posted by jimmychacha
Hi Russ, I am also from Pa, (mount carmel), and I also hold the NABCEP certification (entry level). I would like to start my own business installing, but I need to get this info mastered first. I appreciate the opportunity to share knowledge with you and everyone else on this site. Hopefully I can contribute once in a while as well!
Jim

Originally Posted by NABCEP Russ
Unfortunately in this field, there is no universal certification that shows you know anything about the field.

Originally Posted by Sunking
Oh I don’t know about that. Licensed PE or electrician carries a lot of weight and I would take a licensed Master Electrician over a NABCEP certification any day of the week. With a Master Electrician I know that person has at least 2 years formal education, 8 years continual education and at least 10 years experience. With NABCEP I can get some kid that dropped out of high school or a roofer who does not speak English :p.

And I wouldn’t be so quick to discount NABCEP. It has education and industry experience qualifications as well as continuing education requirements. The exam itself is also very in depth covering all aspects of solar, not only electrical, but structural design, safety, and best practices. I’d also think you’d be hard pressed to find a dropout or some dumb roofer who can pass the exam.

With a NABCEP certification you cannot do the work or pull the permits without a licensed electrical contractor pulling the permits or do the work unless supervised directly by a licensed electrician. Effectively meaning you are an apprentice working to earn your license some day In other words it is not recognized by any authority having jurisdiction. A PE, Master, or Residential Electrician already has all the skills, education, license, and experience to do solar work. It takes about a day to learn from reading a book written by John and it is free. As for the structural, that takes a PE to sign off for, not a NABCEP certification.

Originally Posted by Sunking
NABCEP is tailored for sales persons, liscensed electricians and electrical contractors. I know the man personally who wrote the curriculum and NEC Article 690 (John Wiley). I sat on some of the same code making panels he serves on. With a electrical contractor license you can can pull the permits, with a electrical liscense you can do the work for hire no NABCEP certification required in any state.

With a NABCEP certification you cannot do the work or pull the permits without a licensed electrical contractor pulling the permits or do the work unless supervised directly by a licensed electrician. Effectively meaning you are an apprentice working to earn your license some day In other words it is not recognized by any authority having jurisdiction. A PE, Master, or Residential Electrician already has all the skills, education, license, and experience to do solar work. It takes about a day to learn from reading a book written by John and it is free. As for the structural, that takes a PE to sign off for, not a NABCEP certification.

They do have a certification geared towered sales, but that’s not what I hold.

Also, NABCEP is recognized by certain state rebate programs and is a fast way to be approved to work with them.

P.S. I assume you meant John Wiles. I think everyone knows who he is. Nice name drop though.

Originally Posted by NABCEP Russ
P.S. I assume you meant John Wiles. I think everyone knows who he is. Nice name drop though.

Where I see the benfit of NABCEP is a residential or commercial electrician as it adds a nice entry to the Resume that might be useful to some electrical contracting company to hire him that does solar as part of their business model, or to a salesman who works for an electrical or roofing contractor to go out to the customers home, pitch the product, and gather the required information to give to the designer or engineer.

I do mostly commercial solar for telephone and oil companies, no residential to speak of because there is no real money in it for my architectural design/build firm. Most of the work is off-grid battery for telemetry and cellular radio in remote areas. Have done some large scale grid tied for large business with Walmart 500 Kw being the largest single project. 90% of all the contractors i hire are commercial electrical contracting. When a roof is involved they sub contract out to a roofing contractor. A small percentage of solar contractors I have dealt with are roofing companies who sub contract the electrical out.

Then the small stuff we do with solar is retainer contracts with roofing and electrical contractors who do cookie cutter installs where we pre-design all their systems, and when they make a sale gives us the details and modify for the project and Stamp It for permits and construction.

But all in all solar only makes up about 5 to 10 % of all our business. If it were only green energy, I would have no business or employing people. The real money is in utility power generation, transmission, and industrial electrical. If the government would get out of the way I could employ a hundred or more people instead of just 9 or 10 which I might have to start laying them off.

Originally Posted by Sunking
Oh I don’t know about that. Licensed PE or electrician carries a lot of weight and I would take a licensed Master Electrician over a NABCEP certification any day of the week. With a Master Electrician I know that person has at least 2 years formal education, 8 years continual education and at least 10 years experience. With NABCEP I can get some kid that dropped out of high school or a roofer who does not speak English :p.

No disrespect to journeymen or master electricians who put in their time, but there are those eager to learn the right way to do things. In addition, PA residents are only eligible for solar rebates if they use a contractor on a certain list managed by DEP. NABCEP certification is one path to get oneself on that list.

I am not trying to discourage anyone from obtaining the certification, especially electrical contractors, but receiving the certification does not permit you to do any installation work. You would have to hire an electrical contractor to do it. Any electrical contractor needing a NABCEP certified member to qualify for state incentives is easy; Either send one of your electricians to take the test, or hire an electrician with the certification.

Cute NABCEP Russ. Not much class and wrong but cute.

Russ

Originally Posted by russ
P.S. I assume you meant John Wiles. I think everyone knows who he is. Nice name drop though.

Cute NABCEP Russ. Not much class and wrong but cute.

Russ

And btw, we’re not an electrical contractor and we pull our permits no problem. I do have an electrician do the required work but not the whole thing. Electricians aren’t necessarily qualified to mount the panels nor have the skills necessary to align the panels and make them look good.

Originally Posted by jimmychacha
Or, you might get a well-versed English speaking former Steelworker and CNC machinist, who lost his job after 15 years of service, then when back to school and earned an AAS in Electronics Engineering, a Certificate of Specialization in Sustainable Energy, the LEED Green Associate accredidation, as well as the NABCEP certification.

No disrespect to journeymen or master electricians who put in their time, but there are those eager to learn the right way to do things. In addition, PA residents are only eligible for solar rebates if they use a contractor on a certain list managed by DEP. NABCEP certification is one path to get oneself on that list.

Originally Posted by NABCEP Russ
And btw, we’re not an electrical contractor and we pull our permits no problem.

In PA contractor license are issued on the county or city level, and all contractors are to be registered with the state to comply with Home Improvement Consumer Protection Act (PA HICPA), Act 132 (Senate Bill 100 of 2007) for any contract work over $500.

All states require contractors for hire to have license. This is to protect both the contractor and more importantly the consumer. One of the requirements for any contractor liscense is to be bonded and insured to protect the homeowner or business.

That is not picking on anyone, that is just a fact of doing contract work

Originally Posted by Sunking
OK then if not an electrical contractor, then what trade? Roofing, home improvement, mechanical, HVAC?

In PA contractor license are issued on the county or city level, and all contractors are to be registered with the state to comply with Home Improvement Consumer Protection Act (PA HICPA), Act 132 (Senate Bill 100 of 2007) for any contract work over $500.

All states require contractors for hire to have license. This is to protect both the contractor and more importantly the consumer. One of the requirements for any contractor liscense is to be bonded and insured to protect the homeowner or business.

That is not picking on anyone, that is just a fact of doing contract work

Originally Posted by NABCEP Russ
Were a home improvement contractor.

Originally Posted by Sunking
That is my point, you have to be a licensed contractor of some kind to pull a permit. Then by your own admission you have to sub contract an electrical contractor to do the work. That is not picking on you.

There seems to be a confusion between the NABCEP Entry Level Exam and the NABCEP PV Installer Certification. The Entry Level Exam is not a certification. It is an exam administered by a network of registered providers that can offer it to students who complete their entry level solar PV course. Achieving this exam shows a basic understanding of the design and installation of solar PV systems and does not qualify anyone to install. In the past, this exam was called the Certificate of Knowledge which is why some people think that it is a certification. As you can see from my this thread, we’re still trying to make this distinction clear.

The PV Installer certification is NABCEP’s flagship program and in order to sit for this exam, an applicant needs to show of combination of experience as the lead installer along with training or education. All NABCEP Certified Installers can be found listed on our website on our Installer Locator.

I’d like to end with saying that we haven’t positioned our PV Installer certification to be a substitute for any electrical or solar installation license. Ultimately, it is up to the states to establish that.

In regards to the usefulness or value of the NABCEP PV Installer certification, I’ll leave that up to your discussion but if you have any questions about our programs which include the new PV Techincal Sales certification, please feel free to contact us at (800) 654-0021 or info@nabcep.org.

Thanks for your post and the clarifications. We appreciate you taking time to make the post.

Russ

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